00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;22
Unknown
Wake up. Welcome. Welcome to another thrilling and humbling episode of Energy Bites. We got to do more prep work. Or just just descriptors. It's just kind of the LinkedIn version of. All right. Our intro. Yeah. We're thrilled and humbled to be, Hey, ChatGPT. And write this, though, so it's even better. Very authentic. And that's thrilling.
00;00;30;22 - 00;00;55;03
Unknown
Mash humbling. But yeah, here with, John Kyle fan, the rad dad has given me and Kevin and, here with Caleb, all the, product, manager, product officer extraordinaire. From sensor up. And, so we're so glad to have you on. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I love to show up and pass out my opinion with no repercussions.
00;00;55;06 - 00;01;08;05
Unknown
It's wonderful. It's so any time I'm invited. Yeah. Yeah. Be careful. You might like yourself into your own podcast. Yeah. Yeah. You might accidentally start your own, like we did.
00;01;08;07 - 00;01;26;28
Unknown
So, Yeah, I think, you know, sometimes we start off with current events, and I think one of the big, news stories over the last week or two is that, you know, you got Devin and co. Terra merging with headquarters will now be in Houston. But also, expand energy. Chesapeake announced that they are going to be headquartered in Houston as well.
00;01;26;28 - 00;01;54;27
Unknown
So that's two massive what fortune are they, fortune 500 or what? I think so, yeah, whatever companies that are we'll be moving out of OKC. And I don't know how many more of those there were obviously because even the white Continental's private now. Yeah that's true. It's it's kind of I mean it's wild to think that ten years ago I was actively calling on multiple companies in Oklahoma City, including the two that were just mentioned.
00;01;54;27 - 00;02;15;16
Unknown
And now it's like, oh yeah, what's going to happen there? Yeah. You could do like a full week. Yeah. You know, possibly now I'm like, I mean, even now before the announcement, it was there's only a handful really. But I mean, it very much so. Feels like what I understand Tulsa was like back in the day. They had a bunch of offices up there.
00;02;15;16 - 00;02;41;18
Unknown
And then slowly, one by one, everybody consolidated. And now there's no major office in Tulsa. And it's crazy. I had a development team in Tulsa, and then, like a bunch of our sales guys were coming back from Oklahoma City to the Tulsa office. They somehow like, ended up in Kansas because this was just kept driving. And like the print out, MapQuest was just like, we should fire you guys.
00;02;41;21 - 00;02;56;28
Unknown
It's just not that hard of a task. Yeah. I feel like when you pull out of Oklahoma City, like, you know, the the major freeway, it says, like Tulsa. Yeah, there's one road to Tulsa, and it is a totally like. But I don't know what that is. Is it I-30 or. I mean, remember, it's a toll road. I do recall.
00;02;56;29 - 00;03;13;11
Unknown
Okay. Port Oklahoma nerve wracking experience. The first time I went up there in a rental car and I was like, oh, did I get the toll tachometer? It doesn't seem like. I mean, not again. And both of them say they're going to maintain a presence there, but like, I mean, you have the massive tower that's not even being fully utilized as it stands.
00;03;13;11 - 00;03;30;28
Unknown
Yeah. And then like, there's going to be less people there and it's just, I mean, I feel like I remember when, when Concho in the Conoco thing happened, I think they had agreements that you have to maintain a presence in Midland because like, they don't you don't want to totally destroy a city. I mean, like when I walked around in OKC last year, I was actually working for Devin after Grace Temple Bottom.
00;03;30;28 - 00;03;49;16
Unknown
And it's like Devon's name is on it. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. Literally like I mean like the ice skating rink for it was wintertime. Like some of it is. Devin you got Devin stuff at the Thunder game. It's like if anybody really pulls away that's going to crush that city. Yeah. No it's it's sad to think about from that aspect.
00;03;49;18 - 00;04;13;09
Unknown
Especially like I just like the, the vibe of Oklahoma City when oil and gas is good and when those companies were there was, like, refreshing. Almost. Smaller city, younger crowd. Generally pushing innovation. And so, yeah, I'm scared to what the corporate overlords end up doing with that. But yeah, when you guys it's already grabbed a couple really talented folks in there.
00;04;13;11 - 00;04;36;24
Unknown
I mean, from that perspective, it's kind of awesome. If you're looking to hire people, there's some pretty experienced people, but Oklahoma City that would probably love to stay in Oklahoma City, but, yeah, it's it's sad. Yeah. No, it's just it's hard to fathom. But I mean, I guess we need we need more people in Houston. There weren't enough people moving here as I nicer.
00;04;36;26 - 00;04;58;08
Unknown
Our commutes are not long enough anyway. It's it's only the widest stretch of road in the world, but, yeah, it's jammed up already at 4 p.m., but right across in the Co Tara office. But, I digress. So, so, Caleb, sensor up. What the heck is it? What do you guys do? Well, we don't make sensors.
00;04;58;11 - 00;05;22;12
Unknown
It's one of those, like, classic names. I was like, I don't know exactly. I didn't know what we were doing here. We came up with this. It was originally founded through a Department of Defense contracts for, like, trackable wearable sensors, smart city type stuff. And then, like all tech companies, they found their way into energy.
00;05;22;12 - 00;05;50;12
Unknown
Did, like, a couple hard knock trials with tech and stuff. They're primarily based out of Calgary. But you can think of it as connecting to any remote sensor, any IoT in the field. And then we bring all of that data into the same place. Sounds like really lame when I say it, because that's what everyone says. Well, we're an energy data company and we bring it all into the same place, like, yeah, okay, well, that's what everyone does.
00;05;50;15 - 00;06;20;04
Unknown
It's called SQL server. The cloud. Take your data, remove it, the cloud. But I think the way they handle real time data is very interesting in terms of making it actually usable. Okay. For people. I think there's a massive amount of data collection that's going on across the industry. It like gets, you know, monumental day after day in terms of the volumes and the and just like new tech coming to market every day of oh we we used to not be able to do that.
00;06;20;07 - 00;06;43;14
Unknown
But how you handle the data like our back end, it's kind of a bunch of different storage mechanisms. Like sometimes we use duck leg, sometimes we use a Postgres database, sometimes where, you know, using just S3 buckets for storage. And so it's really architected in terms of a bunch of utilities that can make that data usable for mostly like ops.
00;06;43;14 - 00;07;03;05
Unknown
We do a lot of reporting voluntary methane, you know? Okay. It's pretty hard time to be in the methane space right now that environmentalists are down bad. Let's just say that. Yeah. But and it's one of those spots that what, a couple years ago with IRA coming in, you're like, we're about to print money, you know? Oh, it was like, so booming.
00;07;03;05 - 00;07;36;25
Unknown
All the tech pros were like, this is a problem. And like, oil and gas needs transparency. Get it on the blockchain. It's like, is blockchain really the problem here? I don't know, like kind of seems like the valves are just leaking and like someone has nothing to do with this. So it's been like a weird space for the last five years because we're definitely at the like trough of disillusionment in terms of, you see a lot of companies like getting out of that space or being acquired for like $0 premium type stuff.
00;07;36;28 - 00;07;50;23
Unknown
Yeah, I think, I mean, like, like all of this stuff, I mean, it was either subsidized or people knew it was probably it was a lot of Sia. Right. You know, I got to take some of the buddy who's a midstream got a major operator the other day, and it's just one of these companies. They did a trial and it didn't work.
00;07;50;23 - 00;08;10;13
Unknown
And I was like, but the problem, like, I don't think they everyone rushed these technologies out because people needed it. And they needed a way to say that, you know, we're doing something we don't want about $50 a week fee. But now that people are like, oh, this isn't as big a deal anymore, I'm not need to pay for this thing that doesn't even really work yet.
00;08;10;13 - 00;08;32;18
Unknown
You know, like, well, and it's interesting to see the shift because it's definitely a compliance driven market. Like even regardless of what happens at the federal level, you see a lot of increased scrutiny from the states. And like what New Mexico's doing, what Colorado is doing, Pennsylvania, all these kinds of things. But if you're in the tech world, you can't say the word compliance.
00;08;32;18 - 00;08;53;15
Unknown
People are like, oh, hell no, you're not getting a dollar. No, you're funding out of this. And then like dealing in the compliance space, very risk averse, very like low cost, almost like race to the bottom type of market. So you really got to play your cards right. How you try to scale and build. For that particular segment for sure.
00;08;53;15 - 00;09;14;25
Unknown
But being in it, I'm like, oh my God, this is so ripe for disruption. Like, please let us help you. I'm going to hold your hand while I show you how to use this mobile app. So again, so you guys connect to almost any sensor, what it sounds like. So what are some use cases? And I don't know if there's, if you can mention certain companies if you have public use cases, but I could wait.
00;09;14;26 - 00;09;33;17
Unknown
What does a typical like they give me. Everyone's got scatter technically. Right. But then there's other sources that out in the field that maybe aren't connected scatter yet or I mean, just what's a typical workflow that you guys are facilitating in the oil and gas or energy space? I mean, every company is its own special unicorn essence.
00;09;33;19 - 00;09;56;01
Unknown
The systems that they've deployed, like how they want to measure, there's a lot of measurement still required as part of the state regulatory environment. So you can think of like Bridger Photonics aerial, surveys. You can think of any other continuous monitor devices that are still on site. You can also think of like venting, flaring, blowdown reports.
00;09;56;01 - 00;10;22;17
Unknown
You can think of Ogi inspection tickets that are coming out of SAP mechanical integrity type work. Gate is an interesting one because that is also a hellscape. Like I every time I encounter Pi or one of the interfaces, I'm like, how are these guys still making money? Like, what a shit hole says, no, I mean, I've like, no one can do anything with it.
00;10;22;17 - 00;10;44;27
Unknown
And so a lot of the use cases, like one of the use cases, I'm pretty involved with right now, is like, what is the optimal profile of a compressor blow down. Okay. Like, what are the human things and the order and the timing around them to where you're not venting a load of gas into the environment every single time.
00;10;44;29 - 00;11;13;04
Unknown
And it's a really big problem. And there are only so many detection types and measurements that you can put on that thing before you like. Look, guys do these things in this order, like bake it into the procedural plan, but in order to get that optimal profile and like even have that conversation with the ops teams, you're talking six different data sources and like, okay, go find the Pi skater tags for this particular site.
00;11;13;04 - 00;11;29;24
Unknown
Good luck. Call me in four hours when you actually track them down. No. Does it mean that's exactly how that conversation started with the guy I was talking about? Because he was asking me how we got signal data into snowflake at the previous stop. But now, like they've got a historian in the middle, but the skater tags are crap.
00;11;29;24 - 00;11;51;16
Unknown
They've got to get a manager in there working on it to try to make those better. But again, it's only as good as the data that you're generating, and it's like it was what you can do with it. Well, and I'm also seeing a lot of new implementations around kind of like maintenance equipment, inventory systems and stuff. I mean, people are still trying to figure out like, hey, we bought this site.
00;11;51;18 - 00;12;19;13
Unknown
Yeah, we didn't design it. We don't we don't know what equipment's on location. We don't want to send a field crew out there right now to do it. What do we do? Sure. So it's it's always an adventure. It will never cease to amaze me how many people in billion dollar companies literally have no idea. Like, what's where the data is or what is on location, or they have what mineral interests they own, what they've divested.
00;12;19;13 - 00;12;33;07
Unknown
Like there's so many. It goes across the department. It's like it's not one thing to bring them interest. It's like literally this is what you're paying or getting paid on, right? Like you can't search it really quickly and database and give me a.
00;12;33;10 - 00;12;58;09
Unknown
Wait for climate. Well and at least like there's a lot of data that has a structure to it. Right. Like I come from the IHS and various world like you got data model PDM type stuff governing bodies of how things are collected. It's the wild West and the methane space. People are like, I don't like you're showing me this plume on a map.
00;12;58;09 - 00;13;19;29
Unknown
Like, I don't know how to read this. What are you telling me? What are you asking me to do on my like? And then it's like having the conversation of, okay, well, I know that it shows you that it's coming from the tanks, but that's actually as designed, right? Right. It's happening upstream. Like, where is it happening in the facility design upstream of that event occurring.
00;13;19;29 - 00;13;54;07
Unknown
And just having those conversations is enlightening, enlightening. There are days where I drink more than my first sugar. Yeah. So one thing, a slight pivot, but it always amazes me. Like all these companies are out of Canada, like the like like electronics engineering and the sensors and the like. It's just like it's all in Canada. If you've ever seen the books on any of these companies, you know that a Canadian resource is like two Canadians.
00;13;54;07 - 00;14;14;19
Unknown
For one U.S employee. I worked for a company and they were basically like, we want to do business in the US. And I was like, cool, well, you need to have people in the US if you're going to go be buddy buddy with all the operators at Midland and they just like, couldn't stomach the cost. They're like, everything in the US is so expensive.
00;14;14;19 - 00;14;28;25
Unknown
Like, okay, well then cool, keep flying down from Canada. I mean, you want I mean the money you're making is going to be a little more valuable too. I mean, yeah. So the rules are the same way. If we want to go work in Canada, it's like you have to have a Canadian. Yeah, you have to have an office.
00;14;28;25 - 00;14;52;15
Unknown
There is. Yeah. But, I mean, I will say the Canadian government doles out way more money to software tech companies like anything you'll find in the US. There's so much grant money floating around Canada on any given day. Yeah, and not like small stuff, like three, $4 million grants. And all you have to do is, like, write some papers to prove what you're doing.
00;14;52;16 - 00;15;18;04
Unknown
Yeah, that's pretty awesome. Yeah. I believe in Canada they're a lot more tech friendly. But have you seen the snow? Yeah. For sure. Yeah. The winner is a it's kind of a problem, but I remember we were at odds. I forget what the company was, but, like, we were doing competitor research and we found this company. We're like, please don't come down here like they would have way before with us.
00;15;18;06 - 00;15;41;18
Unknown
Okay. So I mean, you bring up what are you guys focus on, like the methane problem, like, or is it just kind of whatever use cases come up, like from your customers? Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of try to meet them where the need is. We have a variety of those use cases. I think I'm a little different in, in my regards to thinking because I'm like, methane, like it's really an ops problem.
00;15;41;18 - 00;15;59;18
Unknown
Can I just, like, talk to the ops team? Yeah. Like this is all great, but in theory, we should be engineering all these things out of the system and not having to do all these other things with it. And then the compliance stuff, it's it's paperwork. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Mandatory. But people part of it is always, always the hardest.
00;15;59;19 - 00;16;20;10
Unknown
You can't get away from it. I mean and you never will and. Yeah. Well and I think that's the most interesting thing about like, all the hype around the methane space, you had all these people kind of coming outside the industry have no perspective on what actually goes on. Well, it's just like no one ever wants to work on the root cause of the problem, right?
00;16;20;10 - 00;16;36;10
Unknown
Like you got to do flashy stuff. You got to attract investment dollars. I get it, you play the game, but like get out to the field right around in the truck with these guys and see what they're actually doing and how they do it. Yeah. And you'll have a better appreciation for like why things are the way they are.
00;16;36;16 - 00;16;55;08
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's one of next biggest flubs when they come into the industry is they they make all these assumptions of like, oh, well, if we can control the input of the data, then you control the data and then it'll be clean and then everything will work perfectly. Yeah. The mindset of like, what have you guys been doing?
00;16;55;08 - 00;17;22;05
Unknown
You're all idiots. And it's like, okay, cool. You take a look at this data. Yeah, tell me what you got a town. Yeah. I mean, if you're that guy, you should buy some, oil leases. Yeah, right. And go to town like drill holes, you know, miles deep and well. And I think a lot of people lack an appreciation for kind of the risk of getting these things wrong inside these major organizations.
00;17;22;05 - 00;17;46;18
Unknown
Right. And it's like it's never just, one time deployment. And then you're like, look, it's perfect. We we're the preferred application, right? It's like, no, the units changed on this particular device. And oh, now we're going to try and use robot dogs and like, how do you bring that information in? And oh yeah, our unique ID turned out to not be a unique ID.
00;17;46;20 - 00;18;10;22
Unknown
So now we need to give you the real unique ID. Scout's honor. It is the unique IDs. Knowing full well it's going to change eight months from now again. So there's just a lot of, like, tentacles that go on inside the a systems architecture of these companies that most people like. If you've never dealt with it or like suffered through it, you just really don't get it.
00;18;10;24 - 00;18;38;00
Unknown
So that's spot on as much as you can say. And, and, you're not as maybe deep on the technical side of it, but like, some of you guys have maybe or a novel way or, kind of a well thought out way of, like, collecting all the sensor data in a way that like. Because, again, if you're just rewriting every time and someone's data model is different, like, you've got to be able to pivot or unpivot the data and put it in some unstructured format that you can query consistently and it moves from company to company or, yeah, use case, use case.
00;18;38;00 - 00;19;00;26
Unknown
So I mean to some like you guys have kind of figured out kind of a model that works. I wouldn't say we've got it figured out. Well, you're. Yeah, you're figuring it out. We're figuring it out, with a high level of confidence in our ability to deliver. Yeah. I think the interesting thing is I try to standardize the way that data comes into the system.
00;19;00;26 - 00;19;25;28
Unknown
Like, I like one front door, not eight. Yeah. So that when something does break the forensics to figure out, you know, what needs to be fixed along the way is a lot easier. And then there's this thin layer of business logic that you also have to incorporate in terms of the underlying foundational data, like the JW team is going to want to handle alerts differently than the Permian team.
00;19;26;01 - 00;19;45;19
Unknown
They'll have different systems that you have to integrate with for work order management and things like that. So really spending a lot of time and energy on getting the business logic right is where is where most of the struggle comes from. I think you point out a perfect like that example is a perfect, case of this though, right?
00;19;45;19 - 00;20;05;21
Unknown
Where it's like the outside person would be like, they're all oil wells. It's a work order, right? Yeah. Why does it matter? And it's like, yeah, it does. And that's like the Marcellus Field development plan is very different than an Eagle Ford field development plan. And all the things required to build out the infrastructure are different. And like the people on the teams want to know different information about the world.
00;20;05;22 - 00;20;25;19
Unknown
Like everything about it generally is different once you get down to it. Yeah. It's some really awesome software to integrate with. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well it's like it's going to take eight weeks and maybe you'll get access to the the read only SQL requests that you put in. Yeah. It's like any, any software RFP. They're like must integrate with SAP.
00;20;25;19 - 00;20;50;08
Unknown
And I'm like must be more specific on what type of integration you want. Yeah. With that bad boy this massive. Well and it's sweet and different. It's like also having the appreciation for like you're never going to be the end all be all app inside these companies. So like stop trying to convince them of that. Just like make their life easier, make it easy and do what you do well and you will be there.
00;20;50;15 - 00;21;26;15
Unknown
Yeah. Well and and also, I mean, my biggest competition being an energy tech my entire career is always Microsoft Excel. Yeah. And outlook and then the occasional like paper and pad, like we work with an operator up in the Marcellus and they're still doing all their field inspection stuff. I get it right. Like they get a schedule, they print it out, they drive to the site, they do the checks, they write everything down, and then they come back to the office and retype all of that field data entry stuff into Excel.
00;21;26;17 - 00;21;45;24
Unknown
And then they've got a person using the Excel and like merging it with all of the other excels. And then that rolls up into a power BI template. And I sit in these, you know, implementation planning sessions and I'm like, oh good God. Like, yeah, this is really brutal on you guys. You're going to be sick to my stomach.
00;21;45;29 - 00;22;05;26
Unknown
Yeah. And you're and you're have to like skip a lot of like steps along the way to get to where they should be. Yeah. Well and it's like a touchy thing, right. Because the perks of using software and doing implementations is like, some of these people are going to have to find other things to do. Yeah, it's coming for us all now for sure, but it's coming for us.
00;22;05;28 - 00;22;40;03
Unknown
I want to unpack this because this has been like a you know, we're doing AI stuff, we're building automations. And I'm convinced, like, I was worried about the whole job thing initially, but I'm more convinced now than I've ever been that these automation should have happened ten, 20 years ago, like in most cases. Right. Why the hell are we doing field data input into a paper form and then manually adding that to Excel and then adding it to another, and then going into a database or wherever it ends up?
00;22;40;06 - 00;23;04;25
Unknown
It's like it's to me, it's almost like a form of tech that where it's like, because you didn't do this, you have now perpetuated this, that throughout the company for years or decades even. Yeah. And, it's like this should have been an inefficiency that was gained when everything went digital and the internet came along. You know, like once I can check emails and have cell reception in most areas on my phone.
00;23;04;25 - 00;23;31;25
Unknown
Yeah, there's ways to store it locally and then dump it to the cloud. Like there's solutions to all of the problems that they could potentially throw at that. And yet here we are in 2026. I've got cloud running, all kinds of crazy shit on my laptop. And billion dollar companies are inputting their data in forms. Yeah, yeah. Well and I think it it follows a lot of like the hype of the industry.
00;23;31;25 - 00;23;56;17
Unknown
Right. Like, I mean, my first product that I was in charge of, in charge of, was Petra. Have you ever heard of Petra? Cold dead hands user base. Man. That's how a geologist got into product, man. I mean, I think I got into product management because I did, like a bunch of geology, and then I was like, oh, my God, I don't think I can do this every day.
00;23;56;18 - 00;24;17;27
Unknown
Like what? I thought I was going to be climbing mountains. And yeah, they're telling me I have to go sit at a desk to make money. And like, look at logs over and over and over sandals while you set your desk. Well, I mean, truth be told, my dad's, like, business development guy at his small operating company.
00;24;18;00 - 00;24;37;19
Unknown
Was like an ex McKinsey partner with the CEO of a tech company. And he was like, cinema resume. They're hiring a salesperson. And that's how I kind of like, got in. I did sales, but then, yeah, went on maternity leave and these two product managers took me to lunch and they were like, hey, we just got bought by IHS.
00;24;37;21 - 00;25;09;19
Unknown
You're not going to want to be in sales for long. And I was like, you're right. I can't handle the pressure. I got to get out of the kitchen. They're like product management. So cushy. Like, you don't have a quota less travel wise, right? Like, oh, here's a $40 million portfolio. And in the midst of the worst software release of all time, like taking a flat file application and trying to force it on the database, and I knew I was screwed day one, because I had to Google the name of the database that they were using.
00;25;09;19 - 00;25;32;15
Unknown
I was like, this is not going to go well. You know, I think like at the time we had like 250 active users at Devon. Right? It's like, guys, we cannot double reserves. Yeah, okay. Let's not make that happen. And it was terrible. It was, it was a baptism by fire. But kind of like, set the course of my career over.
00;25;32;17 - 00;25;57;12
Unknown
I've always been brought in to clean up something I've never, like, built from scratch on anything. And so there's this, like, mentality that I have around, like, all these net new things. Right. But no one ever really wants to see it all the way through. Like, and again, these compliance teams, no one wants to mess with their compliance programs.
00;25;57;12 - 00;26;19;12
Unknown
Right. Like very risk averse. We know that. It's like not functioning well but whatever we're doing it. Yeah checking the box. Don't include them in the meetings. Like just keep them. Keep them where they are right? I mean, seven years ago I was working on like well, spacing and completion design and like remaining inventory counts, like the sexy stuff, right?
00;26;19;12 - 00;26;42;22
Unknown
Where it's like, all the bankers want to know. No one was talking about methane, no one was talking about compliance. And so I think it's just like a matter of attention in these companies where they're like, oh, let's put the capital on these things where we can extend our runway, figure out who we need to buy up and when and at what premium, or discount.
00;26;42;25 - 00;27;03;20
Unknown
And then, like, the compliance teams will be fine. Just keep on keeping the back and keep them about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What what was the name of that database, by the way? I'm very curious. It was called elevate DB. Oh man. Awesome. Never heard of it. Yeah I haven't been in front of all. And of course I'm like you know new to the game, right.
00;27;03;20 - 00;27;22;13
Unknown
Like I'm, I'm the only one under the age of 40 on that entire team. I'm also the only female I'm coming in to, like, a hard core portion of the business. Yeah. And like, behind the scenes, they're like, yeah, we got to get all this revenue on on a code base that actually has some legs behind it. Right.
00;27;22;13 - 00;27;46;08
Unknown
Like, my developers were like these guys that only wanted to work till noon because they wanted to go play golf together. So it's like, well, what do we do guys. Yeah. And basically the the decision was, okay, we're going to take all of this stuff that people are super diehard about in Petra, and we're going to put it on the new app, which was the app that I came from at the time.
00;27;46;10 - 00;28;03;26
Unknown
And it took about 18 months to replicate all of like the favorite features. All right. I mean, like, Petra is still on, like, a lot of flat files and. Oh, yeah, man, it's still kicking. Like, I see posts on LinkedIn and I kind of almost get like nostalgic. I'm like, shit, people are still using this bad boy, like rock on.
00;28;03;27 - 00;28;26;05
Unknown
I think one of my clients has it, but even like Kingdom has some flat file aspect to it also. Yeah, it's amazing how much of this energy of this industry still runs on software that was built 15, 20 years ago? Yeah, man. Like when I was working on Kingdom, we were trying to figure out, like Microsoft had announced they were going to end of life access database.
00;28;26;07 - 00;28;48;25
Unknown
We're like, oh shit, we got everything on Sequel Server, you know? And I'm like, you knew you were hot shit in the company at the time. If you got like one of the, thumb drives that had, like, I don't know, 500 gigs worth of storage on it to because we were trying to, like, move all these massive seismic volumes around for people thing is, wild times.
00;28;48;25 - 00;29;05;02
Unknown
It's crazy. So speaking of databases, a lot of people probably heard of you brought up Duck Lake. Yeah. I know that's been a pretty new thing in the last about six months, maybe a year or, but some, like you guys are utilizing that. I mean, I've, I've heard really cool things about it, but. Yeah. How much.
00;29;05;03 - 00;29;21;21
Unknown
What did you got into it for. We. So it's like duck DB but it basically creates like a data like it and it can create it like a local one, like on your laptop. But I think it, you know, all of these other things like, like parquet and stuff, they had like metadata and stuff, but it was baked into like the parquet files.
00;29;21;21 - 00;29;38;16
Unknown
But like, I think Duck Lake is a file format, but then they utilize a database to hold the catalog so that like so I think it uses Postgres or it can also use duck DB for the catalog part, but it kind of separates those. But you can create like your own, like let's say data Lake. Hello. There.
00;29;38;17 - 00;29;54;19
Unknown
But you can do on top of S3 like any like any compliant file system. That's awesome. The duck and you could spin it up. You could probably get cloud to spin you one up when you walk out of here. And they probably do it like, yeah, five minutes. Now the the duck ecosystem is growing to be one. And they've hit it just perfectly with all the AI stuff.
00;29;54;19 - 00;30;19;03
Unknown
Because now you can embed Duck Web we that's how we made it anywhere. But now you just run all this shit everywhere. Yeah, we use it primarily, because we do a lot of calcs on some underlying data that we don't necessarily like need and a normal storage mechanism. And we do a lot of versioning of those calcs like this is the 2020, for instance, this is 2025, that kind of stuff.
00;30;19;03 - 00;30;45;27
Unknown
But it's definitely been I wouldn't say like a fight, but trying to condition the developers to not just architect everything from scratch and just like license where we can, we use a lot of licensed components in our system. To where we try to get as much out of the box without custom development on it, like we've got Ricardo plugged in to handle a lot of business logic.
00;30;45;27 - 00;31;29;25
Unknown
It's an impressive tool. We're using Daxter on a lot of our data pipelines. Duck Lake, we've got some Postgres, and then we've got, you know, this kind of like, Frankenstein project off to the side where we're like, how high can we get these vibes to recode the entire app using cloud code? Absolutely. Do it. And it's one it, but it's one of those things where some days I feel personally victimized by a cloud code, because I still have to consider commercial deployment, like inside of these super large organizations with soc2 data governance and stuff like that.
00;31;29;25 - 00;31;59;15
Unknown
And then, you know, my biggest question to the team right now is, but from the product side, we're like building armies of robots. We love it. Yeah, we did a lot of lovable prototyping early on, but it kind of got to the place where we were like running out of tokens all the time. And then I don't know if you've used any of these models to where you get to the point where you're so frustrated, where you're like, start over, like you have fuck this up backslash clear beyond recognition.
00;31;59;17 - 00;32;28;19
Unknown
And so then we're like, okay, well, let's just like spin up our own clod type stuff. We have fireflies plugged in as our note taker on a lot of our customer calls. We're doing a ton of virtual customer discovery. So we take the fireflies and feed it into cloud code. We can do like from scoping documents all the way through to creating linear tickets and assigning them into the team backlog.
00;32;28;22 - 00;32;53;09
Unknown
So wonderful. It's wonderful. From a product perspective, though, this is a question I've got because historically speaking, that was the part of the product person's job or the product manager's job to, you know, take everything from a client PRD, get into the junior time, break it down, you know, take my stuff. Yeah. But now, like these workflows, we have a very similar one.
00;32;53;09 - 00;33;12;04
Unknown
We use granola, but it's the same concept. You record all the meetings, the transcript goes in a quad chord, creates a bunch of different things out of that transcript, one of them being a party tickets. It can go into your art or linear directly, and everything is just kind of it's not automated per se, but it took a lot of that.
00;33;12;06 - 00;33;30;07
Unknown
I mean, that was one of those things that, you know, it was like a necessary evil for every single project. And the more you do those, the more you hate doing them. And that's my experience. Yeah. And so with this, it's so seamless, but it creates great or even like, it doesn't even have to go into a adhere ticket.
00;33;30;08 - 00;33;56;13
Unknown
You can just give it right to cloud and be like, here you go. Yeah. Build my plan. Yeah. I think. Okay, this is triggering a rant, so buckle up. I'm ready. So like any good product manager hates all of that bullshit like pre. And I've worked in public matrix organizations and like, scrappy startups, like three guys coded up.
00;33;56;15 - 00;34;20;23
Unknown
So you can just whiteboard whatever you want all day. But like any person who's really good at product wants to spend most of their time with the customer doing a ton of critical thinking, understanding the end to end, mapping out all of the different systems and components and tasks, not just like what that person's complaining about on that particular day.
00;34;20;25 - 00;34;47;08
Unknown
And so I've seen it free up a ton of time to do more customer discovery, more critical thinking when you can, but it's only as good as faster. Yeah. So that like, I think that part of it to me is really, really nice because yes, there's always there's always the disconnect when you're doing a traditional dev project between what the client actually sees in their mind.
00;34;47;09 - 00;35;10;27
Unknown
Yeah. And what ends up being delivered to them the first, second or third time. And so being able to get to that, you know, be like, oh, hey, an hour later, here's your, your Figma prototype. Is this what you were thinking about? No. You one of the buttons here okay. No problem. Like and it's done. And then there is no ambiguity when upon delivery or testing and they're like, oh well, this isn't how I wanted it at all.
00;35;10;27 - 00;35;35;02
Unknown
And you're like, yeah, how many times has that happened? And you know, across so many dev projects. But yeah, I mean you can definitely one run a leaner team. Yeah. It's it's a weird like weird hybrid of product and design and kind of like solutions, architect type stuff. My personal opinion is like those things are only as good as the person creating them.
00;35;35;04 - 00;36;00;05
Unknown
And so my, my general observation is it can really take you down like the groupthink rabbit hole of like AI slop delivery of like I watch people and and it's almost like they listen to 10% of what that person is saying, and then they're already solution in their mind. They're like, oh, this is what this guy wants. I'm gonna vibe coded up.
00;36;00;07 - 00;36;26;12
Unknown
And if they had just taken the time to really understand what the user was trying to do, and also figuring out like, okay, well, you can't radically change the way people behave overnight, but how do you like, incrementally do that to get to the radical change point? There's still a lot of, like, no guys like, this is still just off, like, it's it's almost like, overcomplicated for what these guys are asking for.
00;36;26;12 - 00;36;46;22
Unknown
Tone it back down. And so there's a lot of like iterative stuff, but hands down like the documentation and I've always had a hot take on parties to where I'm like who's reading this? Yeah that's what it's literally who's reading this? You spend so much effing time. Yeah. Doing that, doing the mock ups. And then it's like they're like, okay.
00;36;46;22 - 00;37;05;05
Unknown
Yeah. And then they deliver it. They still deliver something that's not even in the damn mock up. Yeah, like, well, why did I do any of this? What is the point? It's so easy to fall in love with your own solution and your own designs. And, like, I see a lot of behavior, like trying to talk users into why something is great, right?
00;37;05;09 - 00;37;34;26
Unknown
So definitely like the intake using cloud code to also ask the questions that you maybe didn't ask in no situation. Counterparty. It's a great tool. Yeah, it it should not be used as a crutch for deep product management. So yeah, you still have to be on the call talking and navigating the client through it so you can get it into the transcript at best, you know, or at worst, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
00;37;34;26 - 00;38;06;27
Unknown
But, no, I think one of the interesting things, one of our, our devs has started talking about. But, you know, because the cost of code is effectively gone to zero, like we so we have an FTE model right where we're out basically building pilots and prototyping and doing all the discovery. Directly with the clients. And, you know, then the question becomes, okay, well, what are we handing over to the devs when we go to productize this?
00;38;06;27 - 00;38;26;23
Unknown
And he's like, you're handing us patterns. That's literally because like the code, the language the code is in even now doesn't matter. Yeah. Like you did this in Python and I'm going to convert it. Right. Like, yeah, it's it's crazy. I mean, we just migrated our front end in two and a half weeks from Ruby to React.
00;38;26;29 - 00;38;47;21
Unknown
Yeah. And it's like, that would have been months at any prior to any of time in history. Yeah. And so it's it's very hard though to like, get into that abstracted layer of like, this is all just patterns of logic. Yeah. At the end of it. Well and like what are what are the end users willing to absorb.
00;38;47;21 - 00;39;12;21
Unknown
Right. Because it's like it's one thing to make software. It's another thing to make money on software. Yeah. Yeah. And if you look at kind of like the size and makeup of the industry, like you got to go up into super major territory eventually. And so one of the big things that I'm thinking through right now is, and I always have to preface every call that I'm on, I'm like, I'm not against the vibe.
00;39;12;21 - 00;39;32;03
Unknown
Coding vibes are high with me. I love it, you guys. But also like, how does this integrate with the existing legacy code and what are we actually passing to the developers, and what are they going to do with it? And how do you make this thing scalable in five years? And then the question start, do you have to make it scalable for five years?
00;39;32;03 - 00;40;06;07
Unknown
Do you just rewrite that thing every month? Are you really building for humans as your end users, or are you building for no human intervention? That's like what really scares me about like the existential, like, what does it all mean? Why am I doing this job? You know, it's like, okay, the conversation last night, I was like, do you ever feel like you're working for Cloud Code now where it's like, it's training my replacement, then you're just hitting enter and you're like, no, actually.
00;40;06;09 - 00;40;38;07
Unknown
And then you're like, wait a minute. It's got all this reinforcement learning under. Yeah, I'm literally just training myself out of I mean, I definitely like feel the fatigue of. Reading through the outputs and like trying to figure out like how far off are we on this version of what we're doing. And then, I really just don't know what the industry appetite for some of this is going to be.
00;40;38;09 - 00;41;05;07
Unknown
I'm literally writing a blog right now about, you are cloud code writing it, I am assisted. This is because, as we all know, I'm a great English. Linguist as an as a mechanical engineer. You know, my high school English class is still sticking real strong. It's the last time I took an English class, but, it.
00;41;05;10 - 00;41;37;07
Unknown
What was I saying? Bloggy writing. Sorry. Oh, yeah. So it's basically like a it's CTO, it's C-suite like this is here today, and you probably have no concept of what it's even capable of right now. And y'all aren't even looking at it like it's it's here. And it's kind of terrifying to think that, no, none of them are really, like, super prepared for this or like, you know, the deepest they're giving people is like, oh, well, we'll give some person licenses to some engineers and let them play with some stuff.
00;41;37;15 - 00;41;58;00
Unknown
Yeah, but they're not like, can you imagine if Exxon was just like, hey, everyone has cloud code now solve your own problems? Yeah, it'd be a lot of slop, but there would be a lot of crazy shit that would come out of that because the people that understand the problem, that's the point, right? Well, developing, you no longer have to understand the minutia.
00;41;58;02 - 00;42;19;07
Unknown
Well, this service has these, you know, requirements and dependency like, it, it does it it knows, like it can find out. Yeah. And so it's just a the future is crazy to think about. Yeah. Yeah. It can create tech that but also erase it. Our, our refactor has better cleaner code than our original app did.
00;42;19;13 - 00;42;45;20
Unknown
Yeah. Because it had been through multiple iterations of development and stuff. And it's like now we're starting off fresh. I got rid of a bunch of dead code. The app itself is better. Yeah. We're now able to enabled to use even more tools that our users can end up using because of it. It's it's crazy. And it before it was limited to like, you know, Python and maybe Java and some of the more popular like I saw something earlier this week where they rewrote Fortran to rust.
00;42;45;22 - 00;43;05;00
Unknown
Yeah. Like where did they where how does it even know Fortran? Like, there's not enough data on the internet about Fortran for Fortran and get I mean, like if there's. Right. But it's like, yeah, comparatively from a data set perspective, like much, much, much smaller percentage. Yeah. But it's loops. And again, it's, it's a matter for me. Even if I didn't have that much I could look at it as a for loop.
00;43;05;00 - 00;43;27;17
Unknown
That's a while loop. There's you know, there's x, y, z and convert it to. Yeah. You know find the equivalent. It's finding patterns later. Yeah. Really what it is. It's crazy. It's definitely like some days I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because half my day I'm like, oh shit, this is amazing. Like, think of all of the innovation that could happen just by unleashing this today.
00;43;27;19 - 00;43;59;25
Unknown
And then the other 50%, I'm like with the operators doing frickin unique E yeah, remapping between systems. Yeah. No. Yeah. I mean, well, how do I help Shepherd? Yeah, there's three of you. Data behind the scenes is not complete, so I can't really do anything. Well. And that's my thing is it's like if you're going to survive in the energy industry, especially with, you know, uncertainty around pricing and lower pricing, we've we've squeeze damn near every drop out of the operational efficiency.
00;43;59;27 - 00;44;17;26
Unknown
Fruit. Yeah. Over the last ten years. I'm very convinced. Right. Like when I started the industry, it took a month to drill a well. That's crazy nowadays, right? And so, like. But the only remaining thing is your operate at you, like, your cost as a company. And so how do we drive those costs down? We automate a bunch of this stuff.
00;44;17;26 - 00;44;45;13
Unknown
We enable people to solve their own problem. We get it out of the fucking way. Like there's so much. Yeah, but, I think there's going to if I had to, like, predict, you're going to see a bunch of companies that end up getting bought or fail because they didn't adopt and they can't compete. Yeah. Oh, we just did a funding round and like no less than a full day on what's your AI strategy.
00;44;45;13 - 00;45;13;26
Unknown
What components are you using today. Is this your tech stack that you're sticking with. What do you think you're going to rip and replace? What do you think you're going to write net new with like what's your take on your experience with the engineers inside these companies and like their ability to do these things because I'm seeing like quite the generation gap of first of all, like, are there new people coming into oil and gas graduating from college?
00;45;13;26 - 00;45;30;19
Unknown
It seems like Slim Pickens. I mean, I like I think that's the big thing with even some is AI stuff. I know I think Chuck talked to some folks riling up at one of the companies in OKC about it, but like with the AI is going to like kind of take away some of these entry level type things and like, are you actually going to really get these people in the door or where do you get them in during?
00;45;30;21 - 00;45;51;27
Unknown
You should be prioritizing getting talent in the door. Yeah. You know, because you could easily overlook these folks and then like yet ten years into like, well, we don't have anyone. Yeah, it's even worse than the career change that we had. Right. Well, and it reminds me a lot of like the data science hype curve that came in of like 100% if you're not doing big data and data science.
00;45;51;27 - 00;46;13;03
Unknown
Okay. Well, like, none of those people were like paired with anyone who knew anything about like how this industry actually runs. Yeah. And so they would come up with all these things. There was like a mentor that I had. He was like, the data will confess if you torture it enough, like run those models enough times and you're going to get the result that you want right out of them.
00;46;13;05 - 00;46;37;00
Unknown
But, you know, how do you know from Billy Bob, he was, you know, been on five work over rigs and can tell you how the data is collected and all that kind of stuff, like those people are not getting paired with the data scientist are like, there's, I'm going to, but which is the story. But essentially some data scientist came in and like, found a really strong correlation between API number and AI and the wealth production, you know, was like because he didn't.
00;46;37;07 - 00;46;57;24
Unknown
So it was an almost linear. Math jokes. Okay, stay tuned people. There's more exciting stuff to say. But like I said, like, I mean, people will come in like or I mean, I've seen it. I think my wife said they had a data scientist come in to do some stuff, for someone for the Astros. And I was like, but he found these really obvious correlations, like, well, yeah, we already knew that.
00;46;57;24 - 00;47;21;02
Unknown
Like, yeah, this person has no idea about context around baseball or context or an oil gas. And it's like, yeah, you can find correlations, but I think meaningful it's not it's not the obvious ones. We're looking for it. Yeah. It was case. Yeah. Like we're we're looking at the ability which is vibe coded right now which has really great results so far.
00;47;21;04 - 00;47;50;05
Unknown
Like the results change. The more data that you feed it. But we basically took like an entire snapshot of all of the data that we have in our system, anonymized it, and then vibe coded an app to basically auto load, like map the raw fields into the correct data tables with no human intervention whatsoever. And so, like, those are the types of things that I'm interested in working on, because I don't know if it's just my background, but I'm like, it's always a data problem.
00;47;50;08 - 00;48;17;23
Unknown
Is business at the root of it? It the problem comes from a human having to enter a piece of data into a unstructured or unorganized field and well view that is now different than another field in well view for a different asset. Yeah. Now everyone's dealing with different data sets and different nomenclatures and yeah, it's but yeah, like there is no reason that humans should be entering data into anything today.
00;48;17;28 - 00;48;39;04
Unknown
Yeah. Like hard stop in my opinion. Like there is none. Maybe have a human in the loop reviewing the extraction from the AI before it dumps it into Bellevue. But like that's what computers were made for. Repetitive tasks that humans suck at. Like that's a really good one. And that's the foundation of all of the rest of your data and your operations that are built off of that.
00;48;39;04 - 00;49;20;25
Unknown
So yeah. Yeah. You want good data in here, like. Well, because like the real secret sauce comes from contextualizing it. Yeah. Like one of our most common workflows right now is okay, you've got a bunch of satellites, you got a bunch of aerial surveys that you're paying for those intrinsically find things. Okay, well, then that triggers a review from someone of the desktop app that needs to assign a work order for someone in the field team to go do an investigation, even that field person using our mobile app, instead of writing those things down, like all of these things are just built into these mobile apps like you have talk to text, you can open
00;49;20;25 - 00;49;47;08
Unknown
the camera and take a picture of like, which angle are you looking at this engine from? Because it's like that level of things that people are trying to understand, like, okay, but if you had walked around right, and looked at it from the other side, you would have seen something different. But then how does that work? Order that gets filed in SAP trigger a status update back into our app so that the person reviewing the desktop can.
00;49;47;10 - 00;50;18;06
Unknown
I mean, even listening to myself, I'm like, but yeah, like this sucks. Yeah, nothing about this is great, but it's better than they were doing it right last year. Last month. And there's just a lot of, there's so much logic. I'm, I'm really interested in how we can code up some of these things to act as little micro services on the mothership platform, but be able to set the logic of detection comes in.
00;50;18;06 - 00;50;45;07
Unknown
It's over a certain threshold. It references the last inspection date in SAP. It auto closes it for you because they were just out there ten days ago. Yeah. Like now we should be able to do that. Well, that's the thing. I think you can do that. I think the other part of this is the human element, right? Is it's like we have a bunch of regulatory stuff that we've done where there does not have to be a human in that loop at all anymore.
00;50;45;11 - 00;51;10;23
Unknown
Yeah, but they want to be in the loop. Yeah. And that's I think that should be expected for anybody today, especially in our industry. So bad adopting technology. But, you know, there's going to be a, I don't know how long it's going to be. Is it six months or six years? I don't know, but there will be a time period, adjustment period, so to speak, for the users to have to get comfortable with it before we can fully automate these things.
00;51;10;26 - 00;51;30;26
Unknown
Yeah, because they don't trust black boxes. Well, and even like two months ago, I was, you know, part of this implementation plan and like one of the field guys is like, well, we can't we're not taking cell phones on a live site. And I was like, well, your other field guys are, like, you're not going to blow up my guy.
00;51;30;26 - 00;51;46;24
Unknown
And they have intrinsically safe, phones out too. Yep. Yeah. And a lot of it's just like it's like, well, we're trying to catch up with the rollout and like, you'll have your device and it's it's going to be approved and all this kind of stuff. And then it's like, well, what devices are they getting? Android because it's the cheapest.
00;51;46;27 - 00;52;13;04
Unknown
What's the shittiest device to develop a mobile app for Android? So it's just things like that where. Yeah, yeah. One got to meet them where they are. We bought an intrinsically safe, smartphone device thing, and I was very impressed by the specs. Not nearly as impressed by the user experience. Not to the company, but just like Android on this robust, ridiculous phone, it's like the.
00;52;13;05 - 00;52;30;17
Unknown
But, you know, typing on it, if you had gloves on, there's not a chance in hell you're typing on that thing. Yeah. And so it's like, okay, well, we have speech to text. Why are we even typing anything? Yeah. But then it's like nobody has. I think Apple at some point I think I saw that they were kind of working on this.
00;52;30;17 - 00;52;53;21
Unknown
But you basically need like an MCP server for the OS so that I can tell the phone, hey, open this app or open my camera and let me take like you don't you need to make it so you don't have to touch the screen at all. Yeah, but today I don't think that's really possible. At least navigating across apps and into different.
00;52;53;23 - 00;53;16;21
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. Well and even like in the most simplistic form. Right. Like we've got the GPS Geo location of the phone at the time of inspection. Right. So we can very easily, easily show the walking path of how that person went through the facility on their inspection routine. Do most guys do the inspection routine walking around with the app?
00;53;16;23 - 00;53;38;00
Unknown
No, they're writing it down and then they're going back across the street to their truck where it's warm and entering all that information. And so then once they enter it in, okay, well, you have the wrong geo location for all the inspection information because you weren't actively carrying the device with you. So it's so much human behavior that goes into it as well.
00;53;38;05 - 00;53;53;11
Unknown
Yeah. When you were talking about that use case earlier. Right. That's all about hand enter it. But in Excel go back and all these things. And I mean I think we all agree like you know I think we always say like, well you won't lose your job. You'll just be able to focus on the part of your job you should be focusing on.
00;53;53;11 - 00;54;08;06
Unknown
But I think there's a lot people don't want to like. I mean, like, you could you could say analysis frees you up to do the things you supposed to do, but do they want to do that or. I mean, I've we've also heard the flip side. It's like I pay them a salary. Why do I, I should just do it.
00;54;08;09 - 00;54;28;21
Unknown
Yeah. Why why should I automate it when I pay them to do that? Like the point is they don't have to. Okay I guess. Well, and like all the other things that they're doing right, like I commonly will work with field teams and again, coming in through the methane space without the operations lens, you're like, it shouldn't be that hard.
00;54;28;24 - 00;54;50;18
Unknown
These are just inspections. Okay. Well they're not just doing the Ogi. They're also doing mechanical integrity testing. They're also doing safety reporting. All these other things that, like, no one necessarily cares to ask about because they're not writing an app for it to make money off of it. But, you know, I, I kind of feel for these guys in South Texas.
00;54;50;18 - 00;55;20;08
Unknown
I was riding around with my dad delivering royalty checks and stuff back in the day, like, that's how I spent my summers. And so the remote aspect of it and like, even figuring out where you are and like, what needs to be done kind of still sucks. And that's, that's the thing that, like, I liken the oil field to manufacturing, where you take the plant and you take it and you move it to the most remote, desolate infrastructure.
00;55;20;10 - 00;55;38;22
Unknown
Lacking place in the country. And then a week later, you move it to another place and it's just constantly moving. But with none of the the good things, the power, the internet, all of the amount of data and all the things are amazing on plants, right? Oh yeah. Way better than and you know, with the hard line too.
00;55;38;24 - 00;55;57;19
Unknown
Literally a plant is I mean, that is an engineer like it is strain. We know how the fluids are going to flow that we can. Yeah. That's the temperature and all these things like that's a as a mechanical engineer, that's exactly how they should operate because that's what they were designed to do. The whole thing. Yes. Yeah. You can control all the conditions and all the variables.
00;55;57;19 - 00;56;17;21
Unknown
And so it's very easy to do in that situation. Right. Famous last words for anyone in tech this should be simple. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's easy. All it is is an API. Right. So, before we get in the speed round, I mean, I know you did did your time at both, IHS and in various. Yeah.
00;56;17;23 - 00;56;53;11
Unknown
And any hot takes on the, public data space or any of that. Yeah. Awesome. But let's let's talk about that for a minute. Do you think that public data will be a moat much longer for the oil and gas industry now? Yeah. And like, even when I think back. To the decision to leave IHS and go to what was our energy group before we got sold to Gen Star, I was I just kept, you know, interviewing with the guys.
00;56;53;11 - 00;57;18;27
Unknown
And I never saw the product. I never saw anything. And eventually, like, so much of my market share was eaten up by them that I was like, all right, sounds like I got a lifeboat pulling out that I got maybe jumped in jail. And when I got there, I was just amazed because it was all the same underlying regulatory shit.
00;57;18;29 - 00;57;45;25
Unknown
Yeah, but they had an entire analyst team that was generating derivative information and like eating their own dogfood. So the completions data was getting cleaned up by the analysts. Okay. Yeah. The lateral links were getting corrected by the analysts like we were generating in PPVs and IRAs. And like all the things that people wanted to associate to the data to make it even remotely useful.
00;57;45;28 - 00;57;51;18
Unknown
And IHS was kind of under this mindset of like.
00;57;51;20 - 00;58;15;08
Unknown
Try it. We dare you, you know, like, do you know how hard this public data collection and standardization is? Like, even when I was trying to get lateral length as a field in the data tables, it was like an act of God had to make any changes because it's such, huge, like underlying data model, hard coded data logic database.
00;58;15;08 - 00;58;37;28
Unknown
And I mean, it's a space that I really love to pay attention to right now, because if I was still there, I'd be really worried. But I think that's why you see a lot of the we're in the power markets, we're talking about grids, we're talking about energy demand and stuff like that is very sexy right now. Like minutia is not an idiot like that.
00;58;37;28 - 00;59;07;02
Unknown
Places got a strategy of how they're going to differentiate and and I saw it play out at IHS too, like when my original startup got acquired by IHS. At the time, it was just an energy data company. He started taking those revenues that were like 97% profit margin and buying things like Carfax and like automotive, maritime, all these other spaces outside of just the pure energy data that.
00;59;07;04 - 00;59;29;24
Unknown
But anyone can write a web scraper. Yeah I remember like back and easier to. Oh yeah. I mean like than to know oh now I need to read episodic plot. Good. Read the subsidy. Yeah. But even like back in the day, we were everyone was fighting over like, who had the better production allocation. Oh yeah. Algorithm. Right. It's like now Texas would just go to well level.
00;59;29;25 - 00;59;48;09
Unknown
All right. Productions get well. But if they did that, does that just royally fuck all the prior data to like all the allocated data? Well, no. Do your data models just get updated? I mean, I just did it like I mean, no company is going to right and right. But I'm just saying from a data perspective, you've already got the data.
00;59;48;09 - 01;00;14;17
Unknown
And with its allocation, I guess it's just well, IHS and embarrass both had like snapshots in the data like IHS had like a pre 1993 data set, where they were treating vertical wells a certain way and in versus had like a pre 2001 data set where they were treating the production data a certain way. I mean, what a time to be alive and energy tech.
01;00;14;19 - 01;00;37;16
Unknown
I mean, we have, we have regulatory automation where it deploys a browser agent. It goes to the US agency, the regulatory website. It fills out fields. It goes and finds the well page. It takes a screenshot of that. Don't ask me why. Said regulatory agency requires a screenshot of their own website to prove that the what the stripper.
01;00;37;16 - 01;01;02;09
Unknown
Well, application that you're submitting is accurate. That makes no sense to me, but nonetheless, an agent does all of it. It's crazy. It's crazy to watch an agent navigate the internet. Yeah, behind the scenes. It's pretty crazy. Well, and like, a lot of the internal IT teams, like I see some AI teams and some like AWS AI, you know, freebie budgets coming in and stuff.
01;01;02;09 - 01;01;24;25
Unknown
But like, no one seems to be working on the data problem. No, no, they've been working on that since the big data data analytics trend. Yeah. When they're like, oh, this won't work until we have good data. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bobby's here. Yeah. Bobby. Saving the day. I'm on the data side. Yeah, I went from building out, you know, data warehouses to.
01;01;24;25 - 01;01;45;21
Unknown
I'm making your data AI ready. It's a lot of fundamentals. Hasn't really changed that much like. Yeah, but you got to you can have the consistent pipelines and data checks and you know I mean there's there's so much like AI that we could be doing right. I get questions from my board all the time of like, what what are you going to do?
01;01;45;24 - 01;02;06;26
Unknown
And I'm like, yeah, but all of the data that we need in order to train some of these data sets is still a mess. Like, I have this really weird vendetta out for all of the data systems right now. I'm just like, let's burn it to the ground now, surely there is a better way we could be handling this information.
01;02;06;29 - 01;02;25;16
Unknown
Yeah. It's not. I mean, they were only architected like 30 years ago, so surely nothing has come along in the last 30 years. That would make it easier. Every time I have to log into Pi, I'm like, all right, I better put the eyedrops in to stop this bleeding. Literally. Like, I mean, Devin wrote their own software that they've sent to market with.
01;02;25;16 - 01;02;34;20
Unknown
They kind of teamed up with a company to help sell it, but like, they built their own, it's called leafcutter, and it moves data from Pi into snowflake.
01;02;34;22 - 01;02;57;23
Unknown
But it goes from Signet to buy to. Snowflake. Well, and that's the hardest part of all of the mess under the hood is most I would say 80% of like an engineer's time is still mostly on data forensics of like why does this number look off. Right. Where did it get off in the process. What app messed up.
01;02;57;23 - 01;03;28;14
Unknown
What calculation. Yeah. And yeah it you know why not running. That's checking. Running on these. No that's I mean that's like that's one of my favorite things to do with cloud code on these data sets that I'm pulling out of post job reports and other garbage. Public data like that. But it's like, okay, hey, if the average value in this column is 60 and the max, then you have three max values that are 2000, maybe those are outliers.
01;03;28;14 - 01;03;45;18
Unknown
Let's, let's, let's have that check like yeah, yeah. It's very easy to find a deviation checks. Yeah. It's very easy to get it I mean even now it's starting to tell me it's like oh yeah. By the way here were three three rows that had timestamps instead of numeric data in them. Like, oh cool. I didn't have to go manually find that.
01;03;45;18 - 01;04;03;09
Unknown
That's awesome. Yes, it's me seeing like I mean, it's I don't think it's unique to this, but like the company paradigm, I think I did a dinner, posted it, dinner, everything before. But they have like a really cool editor for, DBT, but like, they have like their own little cursor for your data kind of thing. But, like, I could literally ask you, hey, write me a test that identifies.
01;04;03;09 - 01;04;32;06
Unknown
Yeah, you know, field like values in this column that are more than 1 or 2 standard deviations off. And I would just do it and I would probably write or about to tweak it. Yeah. But in like 30s I would have something in place that was better than what I had before. Like, yeah, yeah, well, and like one of the things that I'm starting to work on right now, slowly but surely is like most of these field inspections where you actually do see the component that is leaking.
01;04;32;11 - 01;05;02;13
Unknown
Yeah, that's all hand typed. So it's like, oh, half inch pipe valve, you know, just block threes or whatever. That's all coming into the system. And someone at the desk is sitting there and saying, okay, well we're going to like merge these three volumes of methane and we're going to quantify it as valve. Right. Because they're just starting the tagging to try to get to like a root cause analysis of like, is it the new Maddox problem or not.
01;05;02;15 - 01;05;29;21
Unknown
Is it the tank hatch. What version of tank hatch are we using? Like should we rip and replace it? I don't know, no one can answer the question how that data updated in the system, the doubtful. Yeah. Some of the speed around. Yeah. This is like the great. What is, before we do that, what's the hot take on on, on.
01;05;29;21 - 01;05;49;15
Unknown
And is that that you might have now that they've been bought by who is black Blackstone, not black Swan Grills? I mean, that would've been a much cooler acquisition, but I think it's a little out of their, their league. Yeah. Yeah. When I just bought Carfax we didn't get free Carfax or anything like oh, we didn't even change the logo to the car.
01;05;49;15 - 01;06;23;24
Unknown
Fox was like, let's rebrand. Yeah. I mean, I'm interested to see what happens with the public data space. I still have a deep amount of respect for my news. And the analyst team. I just think they, like, get the hard press questions from a lot of these executives and a lot of the investment bankers. And so they're just kind of always a step or two ahead.
01;06;23;27 - 01;06;51;25
Unknown
I do think they're entering into a growth phase similar to what I experienced at IHS, where it's like, you can only do so much organic growth, and then you have to start growing through acquisition, and you better differentiate the portfolio outside of energy. So it'll be interesting to see, you know, where that lands. But when I was at University of Texas, I still used all the various products.
01;06;51;25 - 01;07;08;12
Unknown
And so I would text my news like, why did you change the, well, filter list and prism? Why do you want me to come to your house and murder you? I change it back. He's like. He's like, most people love it. I'm like, well, most people are frigging idiots and they're not using this thing, right? Switch it back.
01;07;08;15 - 01;07;31;08
Unknown
I get to ask you about the University of Texas thing. Yeah, well, it's, you know, it's an interesting company. I will be interested to see, like, what the growth profile actually looks like. What's time? What's your hot take on just public data in the industry in general. Like how do you see that evolving in the future. Is that become a zero cost thing almost because yeah, it is public.
01;07;31;09 - 01;07;58;17
Unknown
I mean, because it should have been that way. Here's yeah, here's the hot take of like soul searching when you're working at these companies, you're like, do I agree with this business model for essentially taking self-reported data by these companies? We're cleaning it up and then selling it back to them. Like make it make sense. Yeah. How does this how does this continue to be a revenue stream for forever?
01;07;58;17 - 01;08;19;01
Unknown
A screenshot of your own website for a permit. Like you're fucking like, you know, like and very specifically, I mean, I think IHS has been a laggard for sure on a lot of this stuff. And I think if they ever get rid of Kingdom Petro, though, just implode, because the only reason people have data subscription is because they have the nice integrations integration.
01;08;19;02 - 01;08;38;12
Unknown
So I had to I had to do the direct connect into Kingdom, and it was like one of the worst projects I've ever had to be on. It was like it was like speaking a different language to a data company because Petro was like a means to deliver the data, right? The kingdom was like a huge acquisition for them.
01;08;38;12 - 01;08;59;20
Unknown
They paid 500 million for us and they're like, what do we do? We got to pipe that shit through Kingdom and then. But inside Kingdom, we were a large enough team where we were like, hey, you've got a lot of issues with this data. Like it's kind of unusable the way we're bringing it in. It's kind of like, nah, figure it out.
01;08;59;22 - 01;09;24;22
Unknown
Yeah, but I'm having it on the other side. And various I mean, I think to your point, they probably have a little bit of a moat with just the expertise and on the analyst side, but then totally omitting the open invoice link and doing like monster underneath the hood. Don't get me started on that shit out there, but they're doing some aggregation and stuff with behind the scenes that they can, at least at a high level, provide people like trends and stuff on, like mid-cap fucking operators.
01;09;24;22 - 01;09;43;12
Unknown
Here's what they're spending on DNC. Excuse me. You know. Well, yeah. Any monopoly can can give you a good insight of what I'm saying. That's why they say that's where their energies relative to the Emerald database or someone else is like, it's more than just a way to get your yeah, public production data. And those are the tough calls, right?
01;09;43;12 - 01;10;10;29
Unknown
Because you get to a certain size where like, you literally can't innovate because you have so much existing revenue that you have to maintain and protect. And like if you churn wine, there's not necessarily 100 new logos that you can go collect from these days. And I mean, that's the balance that I have to figure out with my teams to of, okay, it's innovate or die and you need to embrace it.
01;10;10;29 - 01;10;30;16
Unknown
But like, how do we do it in a realistic way to where we don't, like, implode the internal architectures of our customers? Like, let's go, Tara doesn't equal like two x revenue for one company. Oh, that's a bad this is like a bet any like hot M&A market is a bad time to be a data company because it's like one plus one.
01;10;30;20 - 01;10;52;18
Unknown
The companies are very much like yeah. So like we're not going to pay this one anymore because we own them. And we used to do like per seat licensing on the kingdom of patricide too. And that was I mean, you can watch 70% of your revenue disappear overnight in a downturn. Yeah. It's like, well, where did all the users go?
01;10;52;18 - 01;11;16;18
Unknown
I don't know, master. They became teachers. Yeah. Like side of the opposite. I was a teacher and then got in and held on for dear life. What did you teach? High school math coaching. God bless the teachers. The Lord's work. Yeah, my my parents, my ma's all teachers. And then it's like, yeah, I'm someone give me an opportunity.
01;11;16;18 - 01;11;39;24
Unknown
Like I give this a shot at least you can always go back to that. Yeah. I wanted to be a teacher, like going into college. But then I was like, oh, I'm made for a soft lifestyle. I have not made for this grind. I made for the streets. I think I'll double with the rocks. That seems like a fucking hit back then, cause chaos and dangerous minds to.
01;11;39;29 - 01;12;05;20
Unknown
Yeah. Oh, man. That's, No, my wife is was also a teacher. So shout out to all that. You know, it's nice. It's not for the faint of heart. No, no. Yeah. When she came home one day and I was just like, you realize that you could make the same amount of money doing, like, DoorDash and then not bringing all the stress and all that homework and all the stuff they don't pay for you to do.
01;12;05;22 - 01;12;25;05
Unknown
Yeah. Home. She was like, oh, you're right. You, me. Maybe it's not worth it. She's like, but I'm not going to DoorDash. No, you definitely did not do that. My husband teaches seventh grade. Oh, romance. And, I'm so they really do. You can pay me to do. In middle school, she hated junior high to middle school years.
01;12;25;05 - 01;12;45;10
Unknown
I'm like, oh, my God, just get through it. And there are days where he's like, I don't know if we're teaching these kids how to learn or if we're just like, prepping them to follow rules in high school or what, but like, we use a lot of AI to try and make that stuff more interesting and like, you know, relate to the kids.
01;12;45;10 - 01;13;07;05
Unknown
He's one of the most, like, exciting spaces for me. Like, you know, being able to customize how you learn, like yourself, how you like to learn. I love just generating AI posters for him to use. Like there's this scandal right now in the school, they've got some Nutella bandits, so there's some boys that go into the bathroom and smear Nutella on the walls.
01;13;07;07 - 01;13;27;24
Unknown
And like, the principal's like, okay, it's almost middle school for I know, I like, love, I like live for the stories at the end of the day. And he's like, oh, it's like a manhunt now. Like teachers are getting offered gift cards to Taste of Texas. If we find the name bounties our kids are getting offered, like homework passes to narc on their buddies.
01;13;27;24 - 01;13;57;17
Unknown
And and so I, like, make all these, like, wanted Nutella bandits. I generated images for him. That's awesome. Got 11. Awesome. Now Google, this is our future. Yeah. The the notebook LM product has a bunch of this kind of baked in now, but they have a Google has a separate I don't remember what it's called, kind of lab thing that they're doing on the education side where it's like, tell me the topic, tell me the grade level, and tell me how you like, like, do you want a video?
01;13;57;17 - 01;14;14;11
Unknown
Do you want slides? You want flashcards. Do you want a presentation? And it just does it and it's fucking crazy. Yeah I but I wish like I genuinely wish we would have had something like that because I feel like a would have retained a lot more of what we were taught. Yeah. I mean it's like interesting, right? You got to make it interesting.
01;14;14;11 - 01;14;37;18
Unknown
Yeah. But like also being forced to teach to the masses. Right. Like there is no individualized care here in the public school system. Many kids figure it out. Teach them the algebra. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My husband's like, I don't know if I can talk about watersheds for three weeks. Like, what do I do with these kids? They're going to like, murder me in my own room.
01;14;37;18 - 01;14;55;26
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. But even, like, I mean, it's hard teaching a lesson. It's like the one year I taught algebra literally every, you know, about a class, you know, other years I had geometry, different things mixed in where you sweat. It's like the sixth time I'm teaching this. I'm not like, you get it, right? You know why? It's fine.
01;14;55;26 - 01;15;18;05
Unknown
You know, like. Yeah, like, he's, like, super enthusiastic until about lunchtime and he's like, shit. Then you get that three more hours listening crowd. Yeah. Of of middle schoolers. Yeah. All hyped up on their Nutella. Yeah. You tell up. Yeah. This has been awesome. You want to do this beat around or anything? Yeah. Why not? So it's I'm like speed round.
01;15;18;13 - 01;15;39;17
Unknown
Yeah. Sound like you've got a couple boys in baseball. Yes. All right. What's your favorite? You probably don't have a favorite, but what's your favorite baseball? Facility that they play at that, you know, like, complex that they play at? I mean, I love a complex with clean bathrooms, man. Yeah, it's a tough find. Yeah, normal.
01;15;39;23 - 01;16;00;02
Unknown
And, like, you can't have the best of both worlds. Like, you can't have good parking situations and clean bathrooms, and you also can't have clean bathrooms and also decent food options when you're out there. I mean, I still like I prefer the baseball USA. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I forget about those. I'm my daughter's and softball world so we never go to baseball USA.
01;16;00;02 - 01;16;20;06
Unknown
But that's like ballparks at league cities. Pretty good one for us. Yeah. There are these big, big league dreams. There's they're all like former like they look like for like Fenway or any stadium. That's awesome. All that stuff. But then they've got like oh there's like four fields and rolls up and they have like true stands, but then they've got restaurant and like air conditioned and then the bathrooms are actually pretty clean thing.
01;16;20;10 - 01;16;41;27
Unknown
You can get pitchers of beer. I mean I think I'm so like nice. Yeah. By how much money I pump into this like that, I'm like, I don't even pay attention to where I'm at. I'm like living and out of body experiences, too. That's where all the how much money travel teams, the industrial youth sports complex. Now that's a very real terrifying thing.
01;16;42;00 - 01;17;03;12
Unknown
Yeah. And it's like it, it's it's interesting because my older one, it's like you go to the games they're playing, right. And then like my second grader, I need sensory deprivation after one of his games. Like, every kid's got like a volume 80 walk up song where I'm like, I know this folded. Not cheese, little Wayne. Yeah, okay.
01;17;03;14 - 01;17;33;06
Unknown
And like, people are bringing in air horns and then they're, like, screaming at the kids on the field as if the kids can even hear them. And so by the time I get done with that, I'm like, yeah, yeah. No, I feel that my, my son just started baseball a couple weeks ago. And so we haven't, we haven't gone to any, any fields other than the one in Katy, but it's, my daughter on the other side is in competitive cheer and has been for, oh, five years.
01;17;33;09 - 01;17;54;09
Unknown
And so I see what that is, and I hate it. But she loves it, of course. And so I'm like, how do we not do this with you in baseball? Yeah, yeah, I played travel baseball growing up too. And so it's like, but it's way different now than it was when we were growing up. Yeah. I talk to one of my buddies that I grew up playing with this past weekend I had bachelor party like, dude, I if my son decided he didn't wanna play baseball, I would not be.
01;17;54;10 - 01;18;14;24
Unknown
Yeah. So yeah, like and my kids just love to dabble everything. I'm just like I don't. Yeah, yeah. Like my kids are not obsessed. Like, we've got a neighbor two doors down. He's playing on the mariachi team. That kid has been obsessed and is obsessed with baseball. Like you hear him hitting on the, you know, pole, whatever at 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning.
01;18;14;24 - 01;18;31;18
Unknown
He's just. He loves it. Yeah. My kids are always like, yeah, I mean, sign me up. Sounds good. But then also, how many friends are on the team when they're in second and third and first grade? It's yeah, this is when they learn how to do these things. This isn't when they need to be in hyper repetition. Yeah.
01;18;31;22 - 01;18;58;05
Unknown
When everyone cries because they lose. Yeah. And it's like, you lost a game in a tournament. Yeah. Literally means nothing that no one will remember ever. Yeah. So like, I'm, I'm very interested to see the difference. Like my daughter's just starting sports. So we had our first soccer season and it was pretty intense. I mean, she played goalie and the coach was like, yeah, she's kind of the only one that's not scared to get kicked in the teeth.
01;18;58;10 - 01;19;15;14
Unknown
And I'm like, well, I wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last with two older brothers. But girls sports are maybe even more intense than what I'm used to with the boys, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. My daughters it it's pretty crazy. But we have our peers. She's one of ones that loves, like, we tried to get to, to do this era.
01;19;15;17 - 01;19;29;00
Unknown
I want her to like, but like my son, I don't think it'll be like that. And I'm just like, yeah, like, you know, if they want to do it, I'll facilitate it. But I'm not going to sit there and be like, you need to play baseball. Like I don't care. I mean, yeah, yeah. When they're this young, like, they should be trying all of the sports to see what they like.
01;19;29;00 - 01;19;50;02
Unknown
Yeah, that's my take. I'm pretty much like the world's okay at just about everything that I do. And like, growing up, it's like, yeah, I did cheer, I did dance, I played golf, I just like, kind of did whatever I wanted, and now it's like, you need a private coach and, you know, a commitment to a D1 school.
01;19;50;02 - 01;20;04;14
Unknown
If you're going to make the high school team get you anything and like pick one sport because you're definitely not playing soccer and basketball and tennis. Yeah, I was and I see my growing up in Leadville.
01;20;04;16 - 01;20;30;10
Unknown
You did everything. Yeah. What was that like three day school? Day school? Yeah. Nice. Three sports band. Whatever. I'm like. Leadville still exists, right? It hasn't been like it's sequestered into Rosenberg. It's it's it's growing a lot. Yeah. Right now I live out towards there. Now I'm in Richmond, but, like, yeah, I've got an old coworker and she lives in Nebo now.
01;20;30;10 - 01;20;52;11
Unknown
It's it's it's blowing up. They're building new elementary schools, getting out of the high school, middle school, like my oldest cousin played basketball for the needle Blue Jays. I remember going all the way out there, like, are we driving two days to go to the football game? So we're going evil. I was in this would have been like mid 90s.
01;20;52;13 - 01;21;16;01
Unknown
Okay, yeah, I'm really glad I don't have that commute anymore. That sucked from the Heights to me. Oh yeah, I mean it was opposite, but it's so solid hour. You can't, you can't you get to a sermon. You can't shorten it. I mean you know there's no short like yeah. Especially once you get off 59. It's just like okay, two lane road if you don't get behind the character tree though.
01;21;16;01 - 01;21;34;22
Unknown
I mean, like what any of your city were opposite, but like, going home was probably no tree. No. The old homes, because it was 610 or the Beltway. Which one do you want to sit on for 45 minutes to get two miles to? I, I waffle like, now. I work from home, so there's really no, like, disconnect.
01;21;34;22 - 01;21;57;07
Unknown
I'm kind of like, the kids are getting home. I'm wrapping up my last meeting and my range just kind of like dinner, dinner or dinner practice and never stops. But. So it was kind of nice to have, like a commute from downtown occasionally because, like, audiobook decompress music I had I worked from home for two years after, Covid, and that was the biggest thing that I missed.
01;21;57;09 - 01;22;16;17
Unknown
That was the time I got to do whatever the hell I wanted, and no one could change the radio or put on K-pop or put on whatever. Sometimes I would just sit in silence. Yeah, just think about like I have thought about like, do people would if I told someone that, would they think that I'm crazy, that I just drive in silence in my car with no traffic, but I'm so, like, psychopath?
01;22;16;17 - 01;22;36;11
Unknown
Yeah, right. Like. Or do I just need silence? Because literally every other part of my life. So over loud and stimulating. Yeah, yeah. This has been awesome. Yeah. Anything else from. Yeah I mean I know like that's it. Yeah. Good on that part. Cool. Okay. Well thanks for coming out I mean yeah. No it was, it was a couple like sit down.
01;22;36;11 - 01;22;54;27
Unknown
But I mean well we can make it happen. Happy to provide hot takes. Yeah. Any day of the week. We'll have you back for some some hot takes in a couple months. We also need some, like roundtable type stuff. We. Yeah we definitely do. Yeah I think that's a good idea. People on our slack threads in the company, like, don't necessarily appreciate all the hot takes.
01;22;54;27 - 01;23;19;08
Unknown
I have. Oh, you're thought slack is like like it is the passive aggressive like I think it's just text communication is. Yeah. It's so open for interpretation. Well and like thumbs up emoji. Well like yeah I'm sorry I love like a gif or a meme or something. I'm like don't talk to me in command lines. Like yeah, I don't want words.
01;23;19;10 - 01;23;40;04
Unknown
Give me a meme. Okay, can you hear me now? Seriously, triple backtick here with my code and it. Oh man. We'll call. Thank you so much for coming out. This has been this has been great. I'm going to give a shout out to Rick and the boys. How do I get that on camera? Jacob, appreciate the swag.
01;23;40;04 - 01;24;05;13
Unknown
Thank you. Can the boys that ever can send me a hat any day? Yeah. We're trying to get get the, spread the love out here, but we'll see you all next time. We appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Thanks. Exhale. While some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world.
01;24;05;15 - 01;24;13;21
Unknown
Are the ones who do good by.